Friday, November 30, 2007

Omnivision Lost HP PC Camera Order to Micron

Digitimes: HP has chosen Micron over Omnivision as a secondary CMOS sensor supplier as Micron is offering more competitive prices, according to sources close to Omnivision. Losing the orders to Micron does not suggest the solutions from Omnivision are inferior in quality, it was simply due to the aggressive pricing that Micron offered, the sources stressed. The order amount is not large, which implies any corresponding impact on OmniVision will be limited.

Omnivision Conference Call Minutes

Seeking Alpha published Omnivision's Q2 FY2008 conference call transcript.

Some interesting points from the call:

  • 1.75um pixel image quality is substantially better than the prior 2.2 micron pixel generation.
  • Omnivision believes it's ahead of the competition in the development of 1.4um pixel.
  • Mobile handsets accounted for approximately 65% of the Q2 revenues.
  • The 2MP and higher resolution sensors approached 15% of total units last quarter.
  • 1/4" 3MP is winning sockets at a very fast pace, including multiple tier 1 design wins.
  • The total market for sensors in the notebook business will exceed 25M units in 2007, representing more than 25% share of all notebooks.
  • TSMC remains by far and away the biggest supplier and Omnivision does not expect that to change at any time in the future.
  • Powerchip is a development program which was originally intended and still is planned to deliver product in the second half of 2008. It's too early to tell how this will work.

Hynix History

SIKOD presents Hynix history - a mix of ups and downs. Ups are attributed to amasingly good business practice, while the government helps it to survive during the down periods.

Omnivision's Margins Improving

Yahoo: Omnivision reported its margins improving in Q2 FY2008. Gross margin for the second quarter of fiscal 2008 was 25.2%, compared to 23.4% for the first quarter of fiscal 2008. The increase in gross margin reflects lower production costs and improved yields.
Omnivision reported acceleration of demand for higher resolution sensors for developed markets, expansion in new markets and Emerging Products business improving.

Wednesday, November 28, 2007

Image Sensors on ISSCC 2008

ISSCC 2008 published an advance program. It contains quite a lot image sensor related stuff.

First, there is Imager Design Forum, almost entirely devoted to high dynamic range solutions.

Image sensors technology session has 10 papers. Probably the most interesting among them is one written by Keith Fife:

A 3MPixel Multi-Aperture Image Sensor with 0.7μm Pixels in 0.11μm CMOS

K. Fife, A. El Gamal, H-S. Wong
Stanford University, Stanford, CA

A multi-aperture imager sensor is designed to reduce lens requirements, produce 3D maps and improve pixel-defect tolerance. It comprises a 166×76 array of 16×16 0.7μm full-frame transfer CCD sub-arrays, a CMOS readout circuit and per-column 10b ADCs fabricated in a 0.11μm CMOS process. Snap-shot image acquisition with CDS is performed at up to 15fps. The array has 0.15V/lx·s sensitivity, 3500e- full-well capacity, 5e- read noise, 25e-/s dark signal, 57dB DR and 35dB peak SNR.

The most surprising one comes from Toshiba:

A White-RGB CFA-Patterned CMOS Image Sensor with Wide Dynamic Range

E. Yoshitaka
Toshiba, Yokohama, Japan

A 2Mpixel CIS for mobile imaging applications has a pixel pitch of 2.2μm and is fabricated in a 0.13μm CMOS technology. The sensor uses a white-RGB color filter array instead of the regular Bayer pattern to improve the low-light SNR by about 3dB. The array also achieves a wide dynamic range by using charge skimming and multiple acquisitions. The dynamic range can be expanded by 8 while maintaining the improved SNR.

I bet nobody expected that Toshiba would follow Kodak path in exploiting the modified Bayer pattern with white pixels. In the meantime Kodak presents a hole-based photodiode:

Low-Crosstalk and Low-Dark-Current CMOS Image-Sensor Technology Using a Hole-Based Detector

E. Stevens(1), H. Komori(2), H. Doan(1), H. Fujita(1), J. Kyan(1), C. Parks(1), G. Shi(1), J. Wu(1)
(1) Eastman Kodak, Rochester, NY, (2) Eastman Kodak, Yokohama, Japan

A CIS with a hole-based pinned photodiode is presented. The detector reduces crosstalk by 3× and dark current up to 5× compared with an equivalent electron-based pinned photodiode detector. This technology is capable of full-well capacities of 60kh, 11kh and 4kh for 4.3μm, 1.75μm and 1.4μm pixels, respectively. A red-into-green pixel crosstalk of 7% is achieved at 650nm for a 4.3μm pixel, and the measured dark-current density is 25pA/cm2 at 60°C.

Another noteworthy paper comes from Matsushita on high DR sensor:

A 140dB-Dynamic-Range MOS Image Sensor with In-Pixel Multiple-Exposure Synthesis

T. Yamada, S. Kasuga, T. Murata, Y. Kato
Matsushita Electric Industrial, Takatsuki, Japan

A wide dynamic range 177×144pixel CMOS image sensor that can simultaneously capture both dark and bright objects in one synthesized frame has an analog accumulator within each 8μm pixel to synthesize a wide dynamic range image from multiple exposures. The sensor is capable of acquiring a 140dB dynamic range image at 15fps without external frame buffers.

Another hot topic is random telegraph noise and ways to reduce it:

A CMOS Image Sensor with a Buried-Channel Source Follower

X. Wang(1), M. Snoeij(1,2), P. Rao(1), A. Mierop(3), A. Theuwissen(1,4)
(1) Delft University of Technology, Delft, Netherlands, (2) Texas Instruments, Erlangen, Germany, (3) DALSA Semiconductor, Eindhoven, Netherlands, (4) Harvest Imaging, Bree, Belgium

A CIS fabricated in a 0.18μm process with a 4T pinned-photodiode pixel and a buried channel source follower (BSF) is presented. Measurements confirm that the BSF reduces the dark random noise by more than 50% and improves the output swing by almost 100% when compared with a surface-channel NMOS source follower. Moreover, the BSF reduces the variance of the dark random noise distribution by minimizing the number of pixels that have RTS noise.

Life sciences session has a paper on eye-implantable image sensor for blind people:

CMOS Imager Technologies for Biomedical Applications

J. Burghartz, T. Engelhardt, H-G. Graf, C. Harendt, H. Richter, C. Scherjon, K. Warkentin
IMS CHIPS, Stuttgart, Germany

Two CMOS imager chips are described. The first is a sub-retinal implant, being the only imager chip ever implanted into a human eye that partially restores vision to a blind patient. The second is a miniature imager chip, based on a thin-film-on-CMOS (TFC) pixel technology provides an optimum trade-off between sensitivity and pixel size.

DxO Offers ISP Solutions

Yahoo: DxO Labs announced three embedded image processing solutions for camera phones, available as silicon IP.

The three are the DxO IPE, DxO ISP and DxO DOP families. The DxO IPE family of solutions combines image processing with enhanced depth-of-field. The DxO ISP family provides image processing without the enhanced depth-of-field; and the DxO DOP family provides the enhanced depth-of-field without the image processing functions.

All of the solutions are implemented using configurable and programmable SIMD processor core - sounds a lot like like NXP product. The solutions support resolutions from 1.3MP to 12MP. They are available to be embedded on CMOS sensor, on companion chips inside camera modules, or on baseband or application processor chips.

Hynix to Start CIS Mass Production in Q4'2008

The Korea Times: Hynix plans to start mass-producing the CIS products during the fourth quarter of 2008.

By that time it should base its products on 1.4um pixel, if it wants to be on the forefront of the technology. To me, its hard to believe that Hynix is able to develop it in a so short time. If not, Hynix would compete on price with "me-too" 1.75um sensors.

A year ago ProMOS had announced similar plans. However, it clearly takes them more than a year to come up with real products.

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

Hynix Partners with Siliconfile

Digitimes: It's official now. As many have predicted, Hynix signed a partnership agreement with Siliconfile. With all its recent advances, Siliconfile is probably too expensive for troubled Hynix to acquire outringht. So Hynix will acquire just a portion of Siliconfile's equity to strengthen the relationship.

Hynix will manufacture and sell CMOS sensors using SiliconFile's design and will provide foundry services to SiliconFile. Both parties plan to cooperate on product development thereafter.

Siliconfile projects that its annual sales to hit US$65 million in 2007, up from US$24 million in 2006. Siliconfile holds approximately 8% share of the mobile CMOS sensor market. It employs more than 40 experienced engineers, as Hynix said. It's impressive achievement for such a small team to capture so large market chunk.

There are clear winners and losers in this marriage. The most immediate loser is Dongbu, the former Siliconfile's foundry. Dongbu has been with Siliconfile since its inception in 2002 and now it has lost its only big CIS customer. So Dongbu left with a significant knowledge in pixel design and ready to use image sensor IP blocks, like ISP. One can expect Dongbu would try to find some use for it.

Hynix has found the best fit for its CIS program. I'm sure that Siliconfile will propel Hynix to the first league of image sensor manufacturers. However, it might take a year or so for technology transfer. It's probably too late for Hynix to enter to 1.75um pixel generation. I wonder whether Hynix-Siliconfile can provide a competitive advantage in 1.4um pixel.

Siliconfile on its side can enjoy much more advanced process capability of Hynix, so its chances to design a competitive 1.4um pixel are not negligible.

Monday, November 26, 2007

Omnivision Gets New Foundry Agreement

Robert W. Baird reports that Omnivision got a more favorable foundry agreement. Anybody knows what is this new agreement? Has Omnivision improved its contract with TSMC or switched over to other foundry?

Thursday, November 22, 2007

Samsung Develops 150um Pixels

Yahoo: Samsung Mobile LCD Division has completed development of a flat panel X-ray detector (FPXD) for radiology machines using digital imaging with thin-film transistor (TFT) technology. To create its FPXD, Samsung attached photodiodes to a TFT substrate that was produced using its proprietary amorphous silicon technology. The X-rays are detected photon by photon and then converted into visible light, which in turn is converted to electrical signals.

Samsung has created an image enhancement function which is claimed to eliminate most digital image noise interference to provide the highest radiographic sensitivity in the industry.

The new FPXD measures 45 centimeters (cm) wide x 46cm high (or 61cm diagonally) and boasts a 3072 x 3072 (9.4 megapixels) resolution providing ultra-high definition images. The device will be available worldwide beginning first quarter, 2008.

Advasense Develops 1.4um Pixels

Globes Online reports that Advasense, Israel received investment from CIDC, Taiwan. The company PR states that the investment "will assist the company in accelerating development of its 5Mpixel 1/4" CIS product," which translates to 1.4um pixel size.

Simultaneously Photonics Spectra published Advasense article named "Big Challenges of Small Pixels".

Update: EETimes also published a report on that.

Monday, November 19, 2007

Micron 2nd Generation 1.75um Pixel Reverse Engineered

Chipworks came out with Micron MT9T111 reverse engineering report featuring 2nd generation 1.75um pixels. Chipworks tells:

"The MT9T111 shows marked differences from the previously analyzed Micron image sensor at this pixel size. It would appear that Micron has done some homework with this device because the new design has features similar to several other manufacturers that Chipworks has analyzed."

Sunday, November 18, 2007

Albert Theuwissen Courses

As posted in comments to the previous story, Albert Theuwissen offers image sensor courses. Having talked to people who took his courses, I can attest that people find Albert being excellent lecturer delivering very useful and educational first hand information. Being in imaging for about 30 years, Albert went through all the CCD and CMOS generations and became a "living legend", so to say.

I'm not affiliated with Albert in any way, to make this clear.

Saturday, November 17, 2007

Smart Robot Blog Tutorials

Smart Robot Blog has quite a good collection of tutorials on machine vision and similar matters.

Friday, November 16, 2007

Samsung Announces 8MP Camera Module

Samsung made a local announcement in Korea that it has depeloped 8MP camera-phone module with AF and mechanical shutter.

Probably it uses 1.4um pixel-based 8.4MP sensor announced in March.

Thursday, November 15, 2007

SensL and Caeleste Join Forces

Caeleste and SensL jointly announce their collaboration on the design of an application specific ROIC (readout integrated circuit) for SensL's detectors.

Magnachip Files for $575M IPO

Reuters: Magnachip is planning an IPO of as much as $575M. It is seeking a NYSE listing under the symbol "MX.N".

MagnaChip was launched after a consortium of Citigroup Venture Capital (CVC) in the United States, CVC Asia Pacific and another investment fund bought Hynix non-memory business unit for $830 million in 2004. It was initially aiming to file for an IPO in 2006 but delayed the move to 2007, citing stalled sales growth.

In the latest quarterly report Magnachip says that Imaging Solutions sales were about $51.6M in 9 months of 2007 vs. $47.7M a year ago. The gross profit in imaging was $2.5M vs $5.3M loss a year ago.

The increase in sales was primarily due to significantly higher sales of small form factor VGA products and, to a lesser extent, higher 1.3 MP product sales. CMOS sensors sales represent about 11% of the total company sales in the last quarter.

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

DALSA Announces X-Ray CCDs

Yahoo: DALSA announced the new family of 12um pixel AT CCDs: 4MP, 6MP and 12MP ones. The new FF CCDs are said to have higher QE, SNR and speed.

Omnivision's Prospects Improving

Yahoo: High sensor demand from India, China and South American countries is slowing the decline in prices and margins, CIBC World Markets analyst Daniel M. Gelbtuch said. That could allow Omnivisions profits to exceed analysts' expectations.

Gelbtuch added that competitors Samsung and Micron Technology Inc. are "playing nice." "Heading into 2008, we expect strong growth driven by extremely robust demand from developing regions, and tamer competition," he says.

This might be coupled with the previous post on VGA sensors shortage. The bulk of Omnivision sales is VGA.

Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Tower Releases 2.2um Pixel IP

Yahoo: Tower announced 2.2um pixel IP availability. The pixel is made in 0.18um process, which is quite an achievement for such a small pixel size, probably the smallest pixel ever made in that process. IBM and Kodak are known to work on something similar, but no official announcement has been made so far.

The pixel is reported to have 1.5e/s dark current and 9e/s DSNU, both at room temperature. Very nice numbers. Unfortunately, Tower does not provide FWC, QE and crosstalk numbers to complement the picture.

Several Tower customers are already developing new sensors using this new 2.2um pixel at various resolutions, ranging from very small VGA through 3MP sensors for cellular-phone applications up to 5MP for DSCs.

Motorola Causes CIS Shortage

Digitimes: Motorola is making massive purchases of VGA sensors resulting in a shortage on the market, according to Digitimes sources. Motorola is trying to boost its shipments in the last quarter of the year so that 2007 sales will end up more satisfactory.

The shortage has not been helped by the fact that Micron has reduced its production of the component, the sources claimed. Micron earlier decided to cut production of image sensors because of decreased demand, the sources said.

Saturday, November 10, 2007

6Sight Conference

6Sight Conference has been held on Nov. 8-9 in Monterey, CA. Some interesting presentations form its program are below:

Charlie Duncheon, Executive Vice President, Artificial Muscle

Artificial Muscle, Inc. will be demonstrating its newest SmartMove electroactive polymer platform product, the MLP-85. The MLP-85 actuator is a SMIA based auto focus actuator that is faster, more efficient, lighter, and more robust than alternative actuators.

Philippe Kahn, CEO, Fullpower Technologies, Inc.

Known to many as ‘the father of the camera-phone,’ Mr. Kahn presents the day’s opening Keynote Address entitled “Three Billion Camera-phones later: The Instant Visual Revolution.” One of the true creative geniuses of software technology, the founder of Borland, Starfish Software, LightSurf Technologies and his newest company – Fullpower – Kahn has been lauded by industry leaders and countless publications for his visionary strategy, technology innovation and his ability to drive an entrepreneurial culture. Kahn is considered one of the most innovative and dynamic leaders in the imaging and wireless businesses.

Friday, November 09, 2007

3D Packaging News

I-Micronews mentioned some interesting 3D packaging news in the comments to the previous post.

Oki announced it has started a contract assembly service for W-CSP image sensors using through-hole technology (ZyCube one?). In September, OKI established a volume production line for through-hole technology based W-CSP assembly at its production site in Tokyo and started operation in October.

"Based on the through-hole W-CSP technology, manufacturers can make smaller camera modules, responding to trends such as the steadily shrinking size of mobile equipment," said Takaki Yamada, President of Silicon Microdevice Company at Oki Electric Industry. "We plan to increase the production level to 10,000 wafers per month within the fiscal year ending March 2009 and are considering increasing up to 20,000 wafers per month by the fiscal year ending March 2010".

There was also Toshiba announcement on camera modules manufacturing plans. These modules are featuring an ultra small CSCM (chip scale camera module) that will be the first camera module manufactured with TCV (Through Chip Via) technology.

Wednesday, November 07, 2007

Yole on 3D Packaging Roadmap

Yole Développement published a market report on adoption of wafer level packaging in image sensors and other areas. As far as I'm able to understand, on the graph below the yellow color means R&D activity, while the red is production.

So, by the end of this year we are supposed to see wafer scale packaged sensors from most of the major sensors manufacturers. Somehow I don't see this happens.

Tuesday, November 06, 2007

Xintec Prepares 12" WL-CSP Fab

Digitimes: Xintec, an affiliate of TSMC, has completed equipment installation at its first 12-inch wafer-level chip size packaging (WL-CSP) fab at the Hsinchu Science Park (Fab 3), and volume production is scheduled for the first quarter of 2008.

To meet strong demand for CMOS image sensors from the handset and digital camera segments, Xintec already completed the capacity expansion of its 8-inch WL-CSP Fab 2 in the second quarter of 2007. The 8-inch fab now has a monthly capacity of 36,000 wafers, and it will continue to expand in the future, the company said.

8th Generation Kodak CCD

Yahoo: Kodak’s new Interline Transfer CCD technology platform will be the basis for a full portfolio of image sensor products targeted to markets such as industrial and scientific imaging, starting with the newly announced Kodak KAI-01050 Image Sensor.

The 8th generation of Interline Transfer CCD technology developed by Kodak, this new platform reduces pixel size by almost 50%, doubles the maximum frame rate available from the image sensor, and provides a significant increase in image quality compared to the previous technology generation.

The Kodak KAI-01050 Image Sensor is the first product to be commercialized using Kodak’s new Interline Transfer CCD technology. With a 1024 x 1024 array of 5.5 micron pixels, the sensor provides a readout speed of up to 120 frame-per-second in a ½-inch optical format. Engineering grade devices of the KAI-01050 are currently available, with volume production planned for early 2008.

Samsung, Hynix Pursue Image Sensors

The Korea Times: Analysts interpret Samsung’s recent decision to buy TransChip Israel as part of the company’s efforts to confront global leaders in the sector.

"We are also in the final stage of merger talks with two or three other overseas companies relating to the non-memory sector and hopefully the result will come out this year," Samsung's high-ranking official said, noting that intensifying competition pushes Samsung to have more mergers and acquisitions.

Hynix, which recently announced a plan to promote its non-memory business after a three-year hiatus, will increase the portion of the business to 40 percent in terms of sales by 2010 by hiring more experienced workers in the CIS division.

"By hiring more workers in the research-related, product design, solid state disk (SSD) and CIS divisions, we will accelerate efforts to escape from higher dependency on fluctuating DRAM chips," Hynix spokesperson Park Hyun said.

High Definition Endoscopy

Yahoo: Germany-based MGB Endoscopy Co. in partnership with AltaSens announces HD video camera for surgical endoscopy. The MD-V camera uses AltaSens' tapered reset 2462 SOC sensor delivering 60fps of 1280x720 video.

DALSA Wins X-Ray Sensors Contract

Yahoo: DALSA announced that it has received a major contract to develop and deliver custom CMOS image sensors to a leading European digital radiography equipment manufacturer. The contract spans development and production activities over the next four years. The total contract is valued at approximately CDN $9.0 million.

Monday, November 05, 2007

Pixelplus Samples Yet Another VGA Sensor

Yahoo: Pixelplus announced sampling of PO6030 VGA SOC sensor in 1/6.2" optical format. What is unusual in this chip is that it uses quite an advanced 0.13um process to make 3.6um pixels. The justification for this expensive process is probably a reduction in ISP size.

Tower's Pixel Roadmap

Tech-On: Tower's roadmap sees CIS pixel production at 1.7µm by 2008, and 1.4µm by 2009.

Tower's advanced photo diode (APD) 0.18µm process delivers CMOS image sensors for fabless firms like Biomorphic Microsystems, e2v, Forza Silicon and Chinese firm SuperPix.

The chips utilize Tower's pixel IP and optically optimized multilayer metallization, which "...achieves dramatically better optical sensitivity by reducing stack height from silicon to microlens. We recently developed a state-of-the-art 2.2µm pixel sensor for handsets and stills cameras, delivering high-density good-quality pictures at very competitive cost," said Rafi Nave, Tower's CTO.

iSuppli Predicts

iSuppli's Q3 and Q4 2007 image sensor reports forecast the market shift from $5.5 billion and 1.14 billion units in 2007 to $4.7 billion and 1.91 billion units in 2011.

This suggests ASP decline from $4.82 in 2007 to $2.46 in 2011. ASP declines are outpacing unit growth and the shift to higher resolution, more costly sensors. An increasing share for less expensive CMOS sensors is contributing to the overall ASP decline.

The handset market will make up 53.5% of revenue in 2007 and 50.2% in 2011. For units, these figures will be 80.2% and 77.2%, respectively. Among other applications, the automotive market will undergo the fastest growth for CMOS sensors.

Sunday, November 04, 2007

1.75um Pixel in Sony CCDs

Sony quitely released new CCDs: 8.15MP with 1.75um pixels and 12.19MP with 1.85um pixels.

The ICX636/646 series which features 1.75um pixels, is said to use finer process features to increase the aperture ratio per unit pixel by 9% from the existing 1.86um pixel ICX629. It allowed Sony to achieve equivalent levels of sensitivity, saturation signal level, and smear characteristics as the existing ICX629 despite the reduced pixel size.

Saturday, November 03, 2007

Sony 2.8MP 180fps Prototype

Sony fast sensors family is getting bigger. The new Sony article describes 2.8MP 180fps sensor with about 3.5um pixel pitch. The 3T based sensor uses digital CDS, that is the reset level is stored digitaly and subtracted at the read time. All in all, it's quite a strange prototype in outdated 0.18um process and outmoded 3T technology.

Friday, November 02, 2007

Toshiba and Sony Updates

Solid State Technology news log has Toshiba and Sony stories:

Toshiba is accelerating its planned 25% increase in CMOS image sensor production by roughly six months, augmenting some lines at its system chip plant in Japan’s Oita Prefecture to minimize the investment, notes the Nikkei daily.

Meanwhile, Sony Corp. is planning mass production of 8-megapixel CMOS sensors by the end of 2008, in an effort to increase sales of the devices by 30% by fiscal 2009 to about 300B yen ($2.62B), reports the Nikkei daily. At the heart of the plan is a 60B yen (US $493.3M) expansion of its Kumamoto Technology Center (TEC) in Kyushu over the next three years.

Kodak Talks about Design Wins

Seeking Alpha Kodak earnings call transcript contains image sensor status update:

Shannon Cross - Cross Research

Can you give us an update on your CMOS business? I didn’t see much discussion on it within the MD&A. I may have missed it, but anything you can give.

Antonio M. Perez - CEO

We made a few announcements about the processing -- you know, the progress we are making in technology. I think we make some public announcement about low-light capabilities which are fundamental. One of the objectives of our CMOS team is to make sure that eventually, we come with cameras that don’t need a flash, which as you know is one of the negating elements of a good digital camera and it causes a lot of trouble for color management and many other things, battery power and all of that. So we made a lot of progress there.

We are working -- I think we said that we are working the large, volume product that you are going to see is going to be in a cell phone, and this is a project that we are working intensely with a leader in the industry, Motorola, and we will -- you will see the effect of that.

And then the other one is in the fourth quarter, you are going to see, we just introduced it about a month ago, one of our digital cameras at very low-end that has one of our CMOS sensors.

Again, this is a long cycle business. We have our plans there for volumes but the two places where you can see the CMOS business come into relative volumes is in our low-end digital camera and in the first and second Motorola phones. That’s what you are going to see. We are working on other deals but those are things that you are going to see soon.

Thursday, November 01, 2007

Micron's K-Form Observations

Some time ago Micron has published FY2007 10-K Form. Here are few quick observations on Imaging segment business, based on 10-K and comparisons with Q3'2007 10-Q Form:

In 3rd quarter ended on May 31,2007 Micron's Imaging segment lost $17M. During the next quarter ended on Aug. 31, 2007 it lost $15M.

Micron bumped up its Imaging segment R&D spendings from 9% of Imaging sales in Q3'FY2006 to 31% in Q3'FY2007. This translates to almost $43M per quarter, about $170M per year burn rate for Imaging R&D only.

With such a huge R&D budget it's no wonder that image sensor business loses money. Now my question is how Micron can spin off this money bleeding business? And what business model can make these plans viable?